Tulpa.info - tulpa-questions-2

You can't just leave it there.

Deleted User

I wonder why people always expect their tulpa to have immerssive experience in their inner world by default while they can't have it.

Oh and on this point, there is a potentially good validation for this point of view: When we are disconnected from physical senses this innately makes visualization fill in the gap of experience. If you've experienced hypnosis do what it can do you can reach hallucination-grade experiences by being dissociated from sense. Now the question is: Is a tulpa, who you presume dissociated from sense actually dissociated from senses while you are not? - Are you dissociated from their perspective and they are experiencing things differently? There's nothing to suggest your perspective is actually the only one that can be rendered to my knowledge - though I would say there is plenty to suggest they cannot be rendered simultaneously

Zen

Mmm. Judging by your response to my basic emote based Rorschach test I am now going to diagnose you with a phobic fear of eyes and mouths.

what phobia?

Shieldo

11:02 PM

Pls.

11:03 PM

It's right there in the quote.

Zen

Children are not creative.

Of course they are, but not in a "useful" way! Their creativity is unrestrained by anything (unless it is by their parent for example) which is why their ideas are so all over the place

Perhaps I'm just biased, but I do not think I have experienced any sort of loss of creativity relative to a child. But then; I do think the richness of my internal experience is unusual. I have both a high degree of non-impositional visualization skill and an ever growing paracosm and my hobbies are creative. (edited)

I know I am a creative person, but I have always doubted myself and needed very specific circumstances to let it out. I'm not sure if you've seen Leiko's art. (I was thinking how to talk about it but the only way is to talk in 3rd person although it sounds wrong to me, but oh well) Her art is very different than what I used to do before she appeared. I've always done "useful", "proper", "correct" and "what would others like" art, and inner critic I got because of my upbringing was always on. She was dissociated from those experiences totally and with that, she could get access to the creativity on level I never could. It was weird for me to see it at the time when she was sending it to me via e-mail. Now after integration I can access that kind of creativity at will (not always) and even use it at work

8:02 AM

I'd say it's more about lack of restraint than creativity though.

8:02 AM

I wouldn't say though that tulpamancy on its own could do that, I think a huge part of it was my therapy that let me reconnect with those lost parts

Deleted User

I'd say it's more about lack of restraint than creativity though.

yeah that's why i said unrestricted child-like creativity

Indeed I think that comes down to anxiety about self-expression, which is not universal.

yes

Though most definitely common.

8:04 AM

Because, go figure, most kids use their unrestricted creativity and find out it sucks the first time round.

8:04 AM

And then they are quickly told by someone=D

Deleted User

yeah that's why i said unrestricted child-like creativity

Yeah but it feels that you put emphasis on creativity. And I feel it's more about lack of restraint than beings more creative.

8:04 AM

I'm not sure if you read what I wrote, most of it is about creativity being restrained by past experiences

8:05 AM

that's hte emphasis

Zen

And then they are quickly told by someone=D

yes and that's restraining them in the future

8:08 AM

Yeah, about creativity being restrained by past experiences. I feel we are about to get into semantics discussion if I continue so let's leave it with that.

Zen

They're dumb and I hate em

I thought so too. But the truth is that who I truly hate are their parents.

I used to have the same sentiment. Interesting thing was one of the breakthroughs in therapy that helped me with integration was realisation that my hatred towards children was internalised hatred towards me as a child which is what probably was making Leiko so dissociated from me and we couldn't form any form of internal communication. Once I realised that and did work on it, integration just happened and my view on children (and especially me from childhood) changed completely, now I find children even cute and adorable

8:36 AM

I still can't think of children like that. They do annoy me. But I no longer blame them.

8:36 AM

Also, I get very angry when I hear a parent screaming at their child publicly.

8:39 AM

I wonder if in other countries it's as common sight as in Poland

8:43 AM

In the uk when I see parent screaming at their children it's mostly Polish

8:44 AM

Yeah, why doesn't it surprise me?

8:46 AM

It seems to me like Poland might have been a traumatise country after ww2 and the traumas are just being carried over to next generations

8:47 AM

Yeah, I remember us talking about it.

8:48 AM

I wonder how bad parent I would be.

8:50 AM

Good I don't want to have kids or even a partner... But maybe that's a reason. I can't help but think about family as an inherently fucked up system. (edited)

8:54 AM

I mean, traditional cellular family. On the other hand I often think about my system as a family. Or even about a group of friends I happen to feel a part of.

Do people that have one personality in ''wonderland'' with another fronting have better creativity by having the ''wonderland'' dream up various things?

I think a tulpa would only be more "creative" if they were more motivated than their host to invest in creative ideas. I think an example of this is Ranger seems less interested in learning how to recall dreams than I am and seems to struggle with that skill more than I do. If my understanding of parallel processing has any relevance, then a tulpa is more likely to have intrusive and impulsive thoughts in parallel than complex thought. We asked people who believed in parallel processing and found that most of the time their tulpas would either "dream" or have a hard time thinking in parallel. While I guess it's debatable if this type of thinking makes you more creative or not, at the very least you likely wouldn't be finishing your homework in parallel, much less a field medal winning solution. I am curious about the wonderland dreaming up various things part. I think that's the concept behind an automatic wonderland, only it's not its own person. The wonderland (in theory) might be a large servitor like entity with its own rules... We actually have a wonderland kind of like that, but the caveat is we're not really allowed in there and it's not clear how this wonderland servitor works.

11:48 AM

Oh, it's not in parallel, *but it is a wonderland servitor in the symbolic sense. It's not a servitor like Kamiko's servitors

11:51 AM

Ultimately, if you wanted to play with a wonderland becoming more automatic (auto weather, trees, etc.) I don't think you need a tulpa for that. I always had the suspicion that if parallel processing is real, it can be achieved by a singlet. You may need to create a second avatar/form of yourself for it to work but I can't see why not

11:56 AM

Actually this has me thinking. How many tulpa systems actually have wonderland switching? Is it another rare thing to report?

I know at least two systems who claim they can do it, as they also claim to parallel process. However, it's not clear if it's just normal switching with weird or possibly dangerous mindsets about how switching works. We think wonderland switching is really just switching but with the assumption parallel processing is real. If a tulpa has basically their own stream of consciousnesses (SOC) and switches with it or if they depend on a separate entity simulating a SOC I don't know, and who knows if it's doable to achieve in the first place.

Wonderland switching from the descriptions I saw is indistinguishable from daydreaming (which can go maladaptive) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daydream

Deleted User

I wonder why people always expect their tulpa to have immerssive experience in their inner world by default while they can't have it.

Because they misunderstand what the host is, where the boundaries of identity lie. So their tulpa confabulates memories of immersive experiences and they don't question them, and they expect to be able to do what they did.

Scarlet

Because they misunderstand what the host is, where the boundaries of identity lie. So their tulpa confabulates memories of immersive experiences and they don't question them, and they expect to be able to do what they did.

My point of view is close to that too.

3:00 PM

Except for that I think most of the time no memories are confabulated unless it's required to keep consistency. If you aren't even curious what tulpa did in WL, there is no need for anything to be confabulated.

Oh sure, it only gets created if you go looking/asking for it. Classic confabulation.

I disagree. First of all think your question is patently incorrect and built on a false premise. It is possible to have an immersive experience in your inner world; full stop. It's just not possible to do anything other than automated, reflexive and rudimentary physical tasks while doing it. Though again, it is possible to do those things. This all without a tulpa. Here's the thing though, perspective is a trick of the brain communicating between its various sections. There's good evidence to suggest that all of the data we are not conscious of is all still being processed but just not passed to the segment of the brain we are being rendered in. Tulpas don't render any data at all when the brain isn't focusing on them, but empathy works by creating a complete picture of experience then dissociating from it, ie, muting the input to your senses as it is passed through communication centre of the brain. It seems more likely to me that tulpas are experiencing a different perspective from us by default that we are being removed from, to my eyes. Also, I'd encourage you to give me any sort of real data that suggests this isn't the case. You seem to naturally presume your own perspective is the only one the brain is actually rendering, when I think that is inconsistent with what we observe the brain to be doing when it processes things like empathy.

3:32 PM

And if something is being rendered; again, because it doesn't have a body to connect with by default, it will be experiencing sensation based on suggestion.

3:32 PM

Which is visualization+. It's near hallucination.

3:33 PM

Stronger than what you would attain by regular visualization; not stronger than bodily sensation; but equivalent to the experience of hypnosis I would expect.

I'll try to answer this wall of text after I finish work.

If it's not something the brain had already learned to do by the host training it, I don't think it's just going to magic it's way into learning how to do it because another headmate now exists. My original take stands.

3:56 PM

Someone has to take the effort to train it and that effort is unlikely to go magically go unnoticed in a non-traumagenic system. When I see cases where everyone but the host is able to chill out in wonderland, I maintain that it is most likely confabulation happening.

Sure there are multiple perspectives being generrated Zen, but I encourage you to show data that would suggest two or more perspectives in the brain can be experienced at the same time (edited)

Yeah, he seems to be reversing the burden of proof here.

I didn't say they can

So what’s your point?

If the brain is focusing on one the other is experiencing it

4:00 PM

The presumption that tulpas do not experience anything and that their entire existence is confabulation outside of switching. That seems to be what is being suggested. I would suggest that is equally baseless as the overly zealous opposition.

4:02 PM

It's an... ego-centric way of thinking about the brain. And thinking your presently fronting perspective is somehow the correct one and that all else is arbitrarily imaginary is not really what we observe the brain doing when it renders images of personality.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m still open for it to be real, I’m just waiting for someone that experiences parallel processing who wouldn’t log out after 10minutes of asking wuestions

The brain renders states of emotion, then it dissociates or associates, that's all. It doesn't half-render things.

And to me all the desxriptions are indistinguishable from daydreaming

In what way?

Zen

The presumption that tulpas do not experience anything and that their entire existence is confabulation outside of switching. That seems to be what is being suggested. I would suggest that is equally baseless as the overly zealous opposition.

You think they just... magically come pre-baked with this ability to immerse in wonderland while in back?

We come with that ability without training scarlet.

4:04 PM

That's what hypnosis is

4:04 PM

People do not inherently self-hypnotize.

Yes they do

4:05 PM

All the time, but if you mean deeply then that is rarer. But that doesn't change the fact that it's not a trained behaviour

4:05 PM

You don't get into a trance then have to learn to feel

4:05 PM

You just feel

If that were true we should frequently have memories of things that didn't actually happen.

First of all, I don't know why you presume that. Secondly, we do that too.

4:06 PM

Memory is actually frightfully unreliable.

4:06 PM

Like existentially terrifyingly unreliable.

I am aware.

4:08 PM

But it is typically mis recalling actual events, not just purely random.

4:09 PM

I think you're extrapolating from some very primitive base functions some very advanced abilities, without specific honing and training of said ability, and I think it is highly unrealistic that again, that skill somehow gets trained without the host having access to it too.

Let’s talk about it on podcast tonight zen you coward (edited)

I ain't talkin' on nothin'

Because if it was true we did that by default then the host should have access to it too.

They do, do they not?

4:10 PM

In what way does the host not associate and dissociate from a tulpa's perspective in exactly the same way?

The entire premise of this is hosts that claim they do not. Did you mean to argue with someone else?

Wait is it about wonderland switching

I am not arguing for wonderland switching, as I mentioned, that is something that would require serious intense hypnotic states to my understanding

But... in a way you are if you think the tulpa is living some rich life in wonderland while the host fronts.

I am simply saying that by default, a tulpa's form, while being focused on is theoretically feeling without the knowledge of my identity.

4:12 PM

I don't think that.

4:12 PM

At all

4:13 PM

The brain has one focus at any given time. The rest is reflexive movement. (edited)

4:14 PM

When the brains attention is on one identity, that is the identity that is doing the things. When it is another, that is the identity doing the things. However when these parts of the brain communicate with one another. They are both still lighting up, and one is being muted for the other.

4:15 PM

The brain doesn't have one "line" of thought, it's a web that lights up with numerous things that your experience isn't actually processing

4:15 PM

But as a whole it is only doing one thing.

I can see it working as series processing rather than parallel processing

4:16 PM

But people claim it’s parallel

Real parallel processing seems to exist in a tiny percentage of the population, tenuously, but I don't think it's described as to the level we're talking about.

4:17 PM

I don't ascribe to the PP (hehe) generally (edited)

It's probably quite doable in sequence, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm merely saying that two perspectives can exist, and that your experience might actually be different from theirs.

4:18 PM

In sequence